Plastic Armor

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Plastic Armor

Post  Diabolus Vile on Thu May 07, 2009 5:33 pm

Can someone explain to me why plastic/non-metal/non-leather armor isn't allowed even though it may look real?
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Casimir on Fri May 08, 2009 2:02 am

I know the minimums on leather and metal are in place because they are what is known to stop live steel. Plus the whole attainability thing. IT would be cheap and easy to get plastic armor. Plus it would be light weight and decent looking, so why would anyone use leather or metal anymore? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing historical bone, wood or cloth armors becoming legal at some point...but I am very against the idea of plastic becoming legal.
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Diabolus Vile on Fri May 08, 2009 3:43 am

Aurgelmir wrote:I know the minimums on leather and metal are in place because they are what is known to stop live steel. Plus the whole attainability thing. IT would be cheap and easy to get plastic armor. Plus it would be light weight and decent looking, so why would anyone use leather or metal anymore? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing historical bone, wood or cloth armors becoming legal at some point...but I am very against the idea of plastic becoming legal.

Why don't they just have certain real looking plastic armor have seals of a certain ruleset or association which are at a price similar to leather/metal? I see these polyurethane ones for about as much if not more than the actual metal armor, and they're considered larp armor. It angers me that they aren't allowed when they both look real and are uneasy to get.
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Izec on Fri May 08, 2009 11:18 am

My first guess is because the plastic armor isn't a period material that they made armor out of. But that doesn't hold water when you consider what Aurgelmir said about bone, linen, and wood armor, which is period, yet is still not allowed. So, that leads me to believe that it is a weight issue. Plastic can be both hard and light, which they frown upon. They want armor to have an encumbrance downside to the protection it grants. This opinion goes so deep that some people believe that Dag should make leather even less protective than it is now in order to encourage more metal armor. If that is how a significant portion of Dag is leaning now then there is no way that plastic will ever be accepted.

I still find that opinion a bit wacky when they allow shields to be super light with no consequence.
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Diabolus Vile on Fri May 08, 2009 5:25 pm

Izec wrote:My first guess is because the plastic armor isn't a period material that they made armor out of. But that doesn't hold water when you consider what Aurgelmir said about bone, linen, and wood armor, which is period, yet is still not allowed. So, that leads me to believe that it is a weight issue. Plastic can be both hard and light, which they frown upon. They want armor to have an encumbrance downside to the protection it grants. This opinion goes so deep that some people believe that Dag should make leather even less protective than it is now in order to encourage more metal armor. If that is how a significant portion of Dag is leaning now then there is no way that plastic will ever be accepted.

I still find that opinion a bit wacky when they allow shields to be super light with no consequence.

Now I can understand weight issues but that can also be solved with a seal of approval kinda thing that the association can give out to certain plastic manufacturers who weight their stuff down. The reason I brought up the topic in the first place is because I stumbled upon this.

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/LARP_LRP_Arm_Armour.html

They claim it's larping armor and I can see it as being that in other rulesets but it's not allowed in dagorhir. Sucks that you HAVE to pay alot into real armor just for a few extra hits with no other cheaper alternative. And I know some of the leather armor can be made relatively cheaply, but it still gives the advantage to the richer person which takes a little away from the "fun for everyone" factor.

tl;dr - I'm poor and am bitching about having no money for kickass armors.
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Izec on Fri May 08, 2009 9:28 pm


Dude, seriously? $374.00?!? F that! There are some LARPers out there who are getting ass raped!

You can get *real* armor that is sized for a fraction of that price! http://spiers-saddlery.stores.yahoo.net/fustsp.html

That 18 gauge steel fully articulated sized armor still costs less than their cheapo one piece plastic spaulder.

But seriously, it isn't too terribly expensive to make your own armor. You'll pay more in sweat than anything else. One of the easiest and cheapiest armors to make is chainmail (or just plain 'mail' for the historically accurate). All you need is some 16 gauge steel wire, a wooden dowel or steel rod at 5/16" diameter for the mandrel, some wire cutters, and a ton of time. For the wire, you can find it a Lowe's and it costs 7$ for 100 feet. I'm not sure how much 100 feet will get you, probably not too much, but you can find that wire cheaper at a scrap yard or maybe a steel supplier. I've heard of people making a full mail hauberk (shirt) for something like $80 for the cost of the steel. Inexpensive armor is doable. Plus, there are plenty of places to get instruction, like this one: http://www.instructables.com/id/How_to_make_a_chainmail_shirt/
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Casimir on Fri May 08, 2009 11:59 pm

I heard a mail hauberk was more in the range of $55, but I am sure that is to do with the kind of metal being used more then anything. Personally I am more fond of the brown metals like bronze, brass and copper anyways.
That being said about bone, wood and cloth armors; let me ask you Izec. Would you allow well made period armors to pass in our realm?
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Interest in this group and a question about armor standards

Post  Sir Coda on Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:20 pm

Casimir wrote:I know the minimums on leather and metal are in place because they are what is known to stop live steel. Plus the whole attainability thing. IT would be cheap and easy to get plastic armor. Plus it would be light weight and decent looking, so why would anyone use leather or metal anymore? Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing historical bone, wood or cloth armors becoming legal at some point...but I am very against the idea of plastic becoming legal.

Greetings,
I'm a heavy weapons fighter in The Adrian Empire Inc. a live steel combat organization. (you know; real swords, real armor and all that)
My son is approaching the age where he is becoming interested in fighting. Boffers seem like the logical entry point to me.
I must admit that I've just begun my search on non-steel groups that might be appropriate for kids. I'm curious about Dagorhir.
Any information someone might point me towards will be appreciated.

I noticed that you don't allow plastic armor (see the above quote). No disrespect towards your group is intended at all, this just peaks my curiosity.
In addition to being a knight champion, I am a senior marshal in Adria and I've been involved in setting safety standards for the organization.
The Adrian Empire allows high-density plastic in armored combat against steel swords. The most common sword in use has been the Starfire brand longsword. There have been no issues and no injuries to date because of the use of plastic armor. In fact, there are more injuries in rapier fighting than in steel or shinai. (lighter armor requirements)
The only places we don't allow plastic for heavy combat are the helm, gorget, gauntlets, elbows and knees.
HDPE plastic armor can be made into very effective armor for combatants on a budget and it encourages beginners to get involved. Especially if you cut it properly and insert it into a wisby coat of plates.
It can also be made completely "Invisible" to the mundane observer and look perfectly period on its own if you take a little care to do things correctly. Cover your plastic cuirass with leather and strap it right and you can't tell it isn't metal at all.
I started out in a plastic hard suit and still have my original from way back when. I sometimes use it as loaner gear at wars.
Once a fighter is hooked, they generally move away from plastic towards plate or a combination of plate and chain. I know I did. I would imagine that the process might be similar in a rattan, waster, shinai or boffer group.

What was the reasoning behind the decision to disallow plastic in Dagorhir?
I am genuinely curious.

In respectful service,
Sir Coda Wolfram von Seiken Lord Rammstein
Adrian Empire


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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Casimir on Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:38 am

Sorry for the late reply, I don't have computer access often right now. First and foremost, our chapter's forum is probably not the best place to ask this question, the national boards would have more people that are better equipped to answer this question.
From my understanding the two factors for disallowing plastic are that armor is an afterthought in this game and the rules were not written originally with armor in mind, and because plastic is not a period material.
You actually can have plastic hidden for protection in the manner you described, you would just not be allowed to make it appear to be armor to avoid confusion and it would not count as armor.
Hopefully that answers your questions.
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Re: Plastic Armor

Post  Thorondor on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:08 am

Welcome to our game Smile I wasn't around when the rules were first written, but the idea behind it is that armor isn't required to play, so we need to make it realistic. Realistic materials and realistic ways of putting these materials together. You will see a lot of leather armor that mimics how plate was made back in the middle ages. Chain mail is also used and a lot of times it is just butted instead of riveted.

Dagorhir is a full contact boffer game. We allow shield edging, bashing, checking, and kicking. This is slightly different than SCA and other live steel fighting. Even though the shields do not do any damage they can help turn the tide of a battle when used correctly.

Since Casimir didn't fully point you in the right direction, feel free to ask on the national boards at: http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/ I know some of the guys on there have been around for a long while (15-20+ years).

Are you from around Austin and how old is your son? The minimum age for Dagorhir is 16, but it can vary from realm to realm? I saw that there was a group of The Adrian Empire Inc. here in Austin, if I read the website correctly. If not, where are you located? We can help point you in the direction of a group in your area.

Hope this helps some and I look forward to meeting you if you're in the Austin area.
~~

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